New professions

[hidai]

i think Guild Wars needs Samurai and Ninja

[neversummer84]

well the warrior could be a samurai if they make armor and weapons of that style. the warrior FoW armor, while not samurai, has a samurai look to it

[hidai]

i believe GW should have the samurai profession because the warrior does not fight like a samurai.

[Experiment-001]

i dont think they should because this is more based of a europeon medeivl not a japanese ( dont count the necro). So i dont think they should add it. Since they have dwarfs as enemys we should be able to play as thses at least. I know it would be like WOW but it's kind of unfair.

[Bel Javelin]

Ignoring Experiment-001 ... I don't think a Samurai character would be different enough from a normal sword warrior, certainly an idea to have Samurai armour and katana swords (baring in mind it's a two handed weapon!)

[Guild of the Lords]

well maybe you could choose a second class like a warrior advancing into a samurai,staying normal, or being a rogue

[hidai]

samurais arent a bulky/strong type like the warriors. they are masters at katana. the GW dev team could add a few stuff to make samurais different from warriors. for example: spears mastery and martial arts(instead of focusing on bieng strength, it could focuse on defense) and obviously katana as attributes. Besides, look at the monks when the dance, monks are asian. not european or american. GW concept is not based on any of those regions. GW is in a fantasy world, anything can happen.

[sheik ankiseth]

wow u got busted on that experiment

[Guild of the Lords]

lol

[Akki]

Okay, first off, hidai you suck, just kiddin.

Anyways back on track, I think that they should add a samurai becuase it would make the game even more intresting to see professions that are not seen in many games. Samurais and Ninjas are a hard class to come up with, say there flowing core, there main thing that makes them stand out from the other classes. I'm sure the dev team can pull it off with there unique ability to make things / classes look good, but, they do need to make the body attributes a bit more reasonable cause as hidai said the warrior does look a bit bulky even without armor on, kinda dorky.

As for ninjas, if ever added, I'm not talking about the very exagerating like ninja, as some know like in naruto, I'm talking about a spy class, darker, assasins, but still keeping them as "Ninjas" keeping there origin and look from the far east just like the monk. Just see "The last samurai" and you'll get my point. Swift, agile, undetected stealthy biengs that go around lurking and waiting for the precise momment to attack.

That's just a brief description on how they should be, not saying they should look like necromances, those things, I mean dudes...

More like James bond with swords in the past, and opera... anyways...

So think Ninjas + Samurais + The last samurai + GW Dev Team = WOW! ( not in the terms of world of warcraft - that game sucks >.> booo blizzard )

[Ray Of Light]

Instead of reaching for the Samurai and Ninjas with no ' Eastern ' style regions ( yet ), why not opt for the dessert and snowy region professions first ?

An Arabian Nights theme contributes more than the considerable charm of assassins and thieves ( the barefoot types, not the ' medieval ' leather clads ). E.g. :
Dervishes - The forgotten dual wielding warrior fiend class ( :D ).
Magi - Celestial priests and enchanters.
Viziers - Sneaky types with the clasical non-elemental magics.
Primals - Morphing into animals and such.
' Worshippers of Juggernaut ' - An ultimate martyr class.
Alchemists & Inventors - Maybe I just got those from tv interpretations, but still good.
Anything with the wish magic of genies would be nice. :)

And the world of Vikings brings us :
Berserkers - Yes, the big beardy mountain guys.
Valkyrior - Because fantasy settings never opt for big beardy ladies*.
Tricksters - From the Loki school of mayhem.
Beastfriends - Wild animal stances and improvised packs.
Warrior Poets - I believe the Norse were second only to the Celts in this respect.

* I think there there were actually, classically, male Valkyrior too.

And what is with the Necromancer-hate ? Necromancers are definitely the best looking of the male professions IMO.

[hidai]

those are some rare ideas....

[revolutionman]

hidai I agree with you

[Gemini]

I defiantly think those are some good ideas, I like the idea of having a derivsh sort of class, and the primal thing might be cool. As for the bersekers, they might be a big too much like our current warriors. But alot of those sound like good ideas.

[Ray Of Light]

those are some rare ideas....

I do not know if that is a complement or an insult ? :D

I would just be amused by any Viking class with an Ale Drinking attribute composed of buffs which also make your screen go wibbly ( or cause Blindness ). :D
Although I suppose that could apply to a Drunken Master style for your Eastern themes too...

[Akki]

Instead of reaching for the Samurai and Ninjas with no ' Eastern ' style regions ( yet ), why not opt for the dessert and snowy region professions first ?

An Arabian Nights theme contributes more than the considerable charm of assassins and thieves ( the barefoot types, not the ' medieval ' leather clads ). E.g. :
Dervishes - The forgotten dual wielding warrior fiend class ( :D ).
Magi - Celestial priests and enchanters.
Viziers - Sneaky types with the clasical non-elemental magics.
Primals - Morphing into animals and such.
' Worshippers of Juggernaut ' - An ultimate martyr class.
Alchemists & Inventors - Maybe I just got those from tv interpretations, but still good.
Anything with the wish magic of genies would be nice. :)

And the world of Vikings brings us :
Berserkers - Yes, the big beardy mountain guys.
Valkyrior - Because fantasy settings never opt for big beardy ladies*.
Tricksters - From the Loki school of mayhem.
Beastfriends - Wild animal stances and improvised packs.
Warrior Poets - I believe the Norse were second only to the Celts in this respect.

* I think there there were actually, classically, male Valkyrior too.

And what is with the Necromancer-hate ? Necromancers are definitely the best looking of the male professions IMO.

The very desert theme helps, although i wouldn't like to see it very linear into the desert theme, I have alot of ideas that would keep it very erm idianese or aribiac, but from letting the game stroll into the armor liek style from prince of persia, that would not be good. Instead letting the characters have bandanas and other banadana type thingys covering part of there mouth or neck would be cool, aswell as alot of bands in there hands and baggy or normal fitting clothes into the Arabian theme.

And i don't dislike a necromancer ( i am one ingame ) i just don't like some of there animations like the walking animation should fit his attitude.

The attitude and feeling of the necromancer is evil, dark and he just walks so " la la la lala " it doesn't fit the picture.

[Ediseye]

This idea is not even a good one. The "samuri" profession would not go with the game at all. It would make it very unrealistic and kidish.

[Avenger]

how can having a bloodthirsty sword-wielding japanese warrior has a charater be discribed as "kidish"?

if it wields a weapon, and can kill just about anything, it can be a character on this game, without looking unrealistic

[Ediseye]

how can having a bloodthirsty sword-wielding japanese warrior has a charater be discribed as "kidish"?

if it wields a weapon, and can kill just about anything, it can be a character on this game, without looking unrealistic

I didnt mean it that way. I mean it would looka little kidish for a samuri walking around in GuildWars. It just wouldn't fit in right. That is why I called it kidish.

It is a bad idea anyway...

[ShadowGryphon]

Hidai, I lived and trained in Japan and I was trained as Samurai, so.....
Just how do you think Samurai "fight" ?
I will grant you that shields weren't commonly used in fuedal era Japan, but it doesn't mean they were never used.
And as to your "idea" that Samurai weren't "bulky/strong type warriors" you couldn't be further from the truth, and not only were they "masters of Katana" ( it should read "masters of THE Katana") they were also masters of many weapons, such as spears, the Bow and staff weapons.
The fact is, Samurai are, at worst, the equal of any european knight and they, at best, outclassed any western fighter/soldier.

As for Ninja, they would make a good addition as they would be prime for scouting, sneak attacks and fast escapes (this would be good when trying to run to new areas, like from beacons perch to Droknars forge heh heh) this would probably make Ninja the equivalent to Rouges in WoW ( as I understand the rouge character) this would also make them masters of poison attacks. (fyi GotL, Ninja were the ones who engaged in sneak tactics, not Samurai)

Personally I LOVE the idea, as it would be nice to sort of touch my past (in a way lol ), but one thing I would make imperative, Samurai were master tactitians, so I'd make tactics a huge key in their build along with swordsmanship.
Man, the Armor would be KILLER!!

And Ediseye, how would it look "kidish" ? not only would the armor be impressive, it would definitly add some serious flavor that GW sort of lacks ( no offense meant anyone, I just think GW should dabble with something other than the European and arabic ideal, Even D&D added a Japanese/Chinese set of character classes)

[Rayburn Windwalker]

I too, have spent some time in Japan and studied some martial arts while there. I couldn't agree more with Shadow Gryphon. A Samurai and Ninja, if made correctly, would work well in this atmosphere. The game play and skills that were mentioned could work, with some tweaking for balancing issues.

Ninja's could have mystical value as well. Their pyrotechnics have been well documented, and used to gain entry to well guarded areas, and make hastily retreats when outnumbered too greatly. Ninja's actually began the demise of the Samurai, but I digress...

As for it being "kiddish".... what.. you think Dragons are adult like? I cannot tell you how many times I've sat in a marketing meeting, and the topic of conversation was... Elementalists.

If you're looking for a game that isn't "kiddish", might I suggest.. mahjon (spelling), boggle or scrabble. My grandmother loves those games.

[ShadowGryphon]

LOL scrabble!!!!!
Based on Ediseye's posts, you assume he can spell at all.
I laugh because Ediseye feels free to insult something with an old and noble heritage, something I have made a part of my life ( I am an adherent of Bushido) and when he insults that he insults ME.
Yes I may be "Gaijin" (foreigner/non-japanese) and Ronin (without house/clan, which oddly enough I am in the game too LOL) but I was trained as Samurai and I uphold the ideals they created in Bushido, Ideals that survive to this day in Japan.

And to Hidai, you keep on proposing your ideas and ignore puffed up, Baka Gaijin who want to call them stupid, because as you can see there more of us who like it than those that don't. BRAVO!

[hidai]

LOL scrabble!!!!!
Based on Ediseye's posts, you assume he can spell at all.
I laugh because Ediseye feels free to insult something with an old and noble heritage, something I have made a part of my life ( I am an adherent of Bushido) and when he insults that he insults ME.
Yes I may be "Gaijin" (foreigner/non-japanese) and Ronin (without house/clan, which oddly enough I am in the game too LOL) but I was trained as Samurai and I uphold the ideals they created in Bushido, Ideals that survive to this day in Japan.

And to Hidai, you keep on proposing your ideas and ignore puffed up, Baka Gaijin who want to call them stupid, because as you can see there more of us who like it than those that don't. BRAVO!

i know they were masters in many areas, i did a topic on
september 5 of many suggestions i just thought of putting like the most basic because we cant make them too powerful, they got to have a balance in the GW world
http://forums.knights-templar.com/viewtopic.php?t=2286

And i will keep proposing ideas! :D So if samurai and ninja professions end up in GW its basically their ideas that are going to be place in the game, so i hope they make research behind the samurai in order to make a rich profession in terms of what distinguish the samurai the most(the same for ninjas).

[ShadowGryphon]

Gryph hands Hidai some cookies :D

[Keira Bloodlust]

i think Guild Wars needs Samurai and Ninja


A better name for that would be Assassin like in Diablo 2

[Branwen]

If they made a asian area to the game, a Samurai or Ninja would work well, but i would prefer to stick to the realm that guild wars is set in. (I know that the Monk is asian)

The European theme should be stuck with unless there is more reason to think there is any other realm within Guild Wars, then they can go full bolt ahead with it.

~Branwen

[harbinger]

8) They could make a whole new region mixing chinese, japanese and korean influence. That would be cool.

With dark jungles like in cambodia, huge fields in mountainous region like china an vietnam, and snowy forest like in japan...

Mixing all the religious and animistic beliefs :) the Mogwai, the kami and all...
The tengu, the chinese ghosts...

:D And why are the monk so good in kungfu(kempo) when they dance and don't use it in combat :? . Always found that weird.

Practised Shorinji Kempo with Aosaka sensei in Europe.
Hidai and the others, what is your discipline? :D

[ShadowGryphon]

I'll say this once more time..........
THERE IS NO SET NATIONALITY IN GUILD WARS!

pay CLOSE attention to what you are seeing, and you'll note that there is actually very little "european" styling in this game, not to mention that........
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN A FANTASY GAME!
this game borrows from all OVER our world, not just your little narrow minded view of things, the operative world being "borrows". Why do I say this ? simple..... there is no REAL european, english, german, russian, middle eastern looks within this game, there are just looks that resemble all these. then there is the fact that ALL these looks and nationalities are more closely settled next to each other than they are normally in the real world.

IT'S A FANTASY GAME! just go with it .... sheesh.

stop blocking your options and stop saying "it can't happen because it's not part of this world" well, thus far, ALOT of what has been put in the game is not part of our "REAL LIFE" world.

[harbinger]

8) Chill dude. No need to go all over space to moon and back for such posts. As you said, it is fantasy world... People can dream no? (NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO) ooh... ok...

I agree that an authentic samurai would look a bit out of place in GW imo.
As well as ninjas...

But that can give ideas to new professions or to enhance some professions...
For exemple take the basic tank.
Weapons used by tanks are ranging from sword to blunt weapons...
But to use these weapons doesn't require the same skills...

Sword is more about dexterity and speed...
Hammer is about brute strength and stamina...
Axe is in between...

A tank becoming a sword master (as a samurai can choose to master one weapon) could acquire some new attributes... Imagine what could be elite attribute :)
Attributes that would need at least ... well 13 in a given attribute :)
If sword mastery ==13 ---> choose an elite attribute...

These elite attribute could be :
-two sword wielding (ability to use two sword, but lower the armor class)
-duellist (specialize in one vs one combat, have dicreased protection on side and back...)
-and so on...

These elite attribute could unlock new ellite skills requiring the elite attribute :)

And now, about my idea, I don't see what's wrong in having landscape inspired from real landscape in far eastern regions. After all, there are deserts. Why not huge rice (or other fantasy vegetable) field filled with water among cultivated hills and small villages :)

And now, may I suggest that you cut using met and coke :) ?
Shouting on people isn't nice, whatever the motivation. As you see, nobody shouts here.

[XRaiyn]

I would maybe say that there could be a new place where the samurais start from... maybe like an island with only a bridge connected to the mainland or something... and you already start pass the searing... but everything in it is like the pre-searing, and you do a mission, where you cross the bridge (or even maybe get on a boat and defend the boat with a bow from monsters trying to get on), and then you have to go to a certain town. and maybe in 2 towns, you'll be in Fort Ranik or maybe even Old Ascalon?? Just my 2 cents...

[harbinger]

Forget about the samurai and ninja for Dwayna and Ailix sake...
:D there is already so much game with them inside.

:twisted: But to specialize a character further into a sword master could be fun...

[Falconer]

*snip*
The fact is, Samurai are, at worst, the equal of any european knight and they, at best, outclassed any western fighter/soldier.

*snip*

( no offense meant anyone, I just think GW should dabble with something other than the European and arabic ideal, Even D&D added a Japanese/Chinese set of character classes)

It's this kind of attitude why I always argue against these kinds of classes.

Also I'll point out that oriental adventures was so completely broken that it was IMPOSSIBLE to run with normal D&D because the power levels were just rediculously different. The same can't be done in GW and shouldn't be.

One... you've made no case why a samurai is a good class to consider WITH RESPECT TO ALREADY EXISTING WARRIORS
Two... you just spout BS about how great and superior they supposedly were with no context. (the old mine is bigger than yours mantra...)
Three... the only suggestions I got out of your post were indirect... EG: two-handed swords (name it a katana or whatever so long as it isn't broken). Maybe another skill line for polearms on warriors. Different offhand items for warriors other than shields... (if it's a Ra/W make it expertise linked for example... currently the only ranger item in game is the bow... and that's ONLY linked to marksmanship).

I've studied quite a bit on Japan as well. There are MANY political, environmental, and geographic items which had a huge impact on the way things panned out in each region. (personally I find this topic fascinating and read what I can on comparative history). One of the biggest I'll point out is that katana's are great weapons provided your foe is in no or lightweight armor... Why is this? Because heavy armors in japan were exceedingly rare; and katanas evolved in this environment. Metal was rare and of poor quality ore in Japan... which is THE major reason for the folding techniques that emerged for making blades (working out the impurities everytime you flattened and folded the metal). It also meant that metal armors were uncommon and piecemeal when encountered. Warfare in Japan evolved in a far different direction from that in Europe for reasons both natural and political.

If you like the oriental look. The dragon armor IIRC had a very oriental banded look to it for a long time. And I thought it looked quite nice. Otherwise.. really the looks are just a matter of a new armor set and some other supporting artwork if you think about it. (EG: facial styles... hairstyles... facial hair...)

Unfortunately for a samurai theme currently... I'd say that Ra/W is probably a better way to go (lots of light armor... lots of fast attack skills... no need to charge adrenaline you can go straight to the high energy attack skills early and often... and NOT a lot of armor penetration). And most importantly it's currently a BALANCED implementation in game. Downside is there really isn't a good off-hand item UNLESS you had the european pre-order (they get a really nice offhand 'focus' which gives +armor and +energy for the Ra/W, this is the only pre-order item I have issues with as there is no in game substitute for it).

If you like samurai type themes. I'd far more suggest putting your efforts into samurai themed (or namestyle) skill suggestions for the Warrior or the Ra/W. Devs do skim forums and such. And they might like your idea. Especially if they're novel and new (a hard bar to reach). Especially if they delve more into the mystical and such aspects of the theme. (some of them might make very good 'smiting' skills for a monk). Keep in mind combat in this game is much more than simply click on target click on target... like the old diablos. You can also attack their energy, go for more disruptive while doing light damage. etc. etc. etc. 'Real world' attacks will only get you so far in this game.

[mitsi m]

i think they should make it so you can be a monster character aswell like a big pvp character thingy if you dont now wot i mean its like wow but wow is crap

[wood kid]

Personaly, I think Guild Wars does not need more close combat fighters, but i can think of 2 proffesions that would definently be fun to play:

Thief

Atributes:

Steath - encreases the duration you can remain invisable

Daggers - emproves damage dealt with daggars, and affectiveness of daggar skills

Theivery - encreases affectiveness of theivery skills

Skill sugestions:

sneek (starting skill)- alows thief to become invisable for a duration of time (depends on "stealth" attribute.

backstab (starting skill)- can only be used when invisable, and must attack the back of target 2..5x damage (depends on daggar attribute)

pickpocet (acuired later in the game from trainer, or off a boos that is hard to find near Beacon's Perch)- allows thief to pickpocket gold from npc enimies 5..100 gold (depends on theivery attribute)

lock pick {elite}- allows thief to open locked chests and doors chest 10..80% chance, doors 5..50% chance (depends on theivery attribute).

the armour for the thief should be simmilar to rangers... leather, except more dark, and there head armour should be hoods!


Also a shapeshifting class would be cool... one with nature magic.

Attribute sugestions:

Shapeshifting - encreases damage, and duration of shift and encreases effectiveness of animal skills

Nature Magic - encrease the effectiveness of nature magic skills

[ShadowGryphon]

I've studied quite a bit on Japan as well. There are MANY political, environmental, and geographic items which had a huge impact on the way things panned out in each region. (personally I find this topic fascinating and read what I can on comparative history). One of the biggest I'll point out is that katana's are great weapons provided your foe is in no or lightweight armor... Why is this? Because heavy armors in japan were exceedingly rare; and katanas evolved in this environment. Metal was rare and of poor quality ore in Japan... which is THE major reason for the folding techniques that emerged for making blades (working out the impurities everytime you flattened and folded the metal). It also meant that metal armors were uncommon and piecemeal when encountered. Warfare in Japan evolved in a far different direction from that in Europe for reasons both natural and political.

You studied on japan eh? well I studied IN japan, so
let me educate you.........
your comment about the ore being of poor quality shows me that you know little to nothing of how steel is made.
Steel is an alloy....... a combination of iron (smelted) carbon and other various scrap metals (there was never a set kind of scrap) . of course there will be impuritied in iron ore, it hasn't been refined, not to mention the fact that the forging process is as it is to REMOVE as many impurities as possible. this is true of any steel made in europe as well.
there have been studies made and much research done on the differences between Knights and samurai (here is one such http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm) and my opinion concering Samurai is just that, my opinion. One based on my time training in japan and studying both japan as a whole and Samurai in specific.

The reason for the folding method of forging steel was so that a softer steel could be added to the core of the katana...... so that it could be sharpened, and allow for flexibility why you ask ? simple..... overly hard steel is VERY difficult to sharpen and often cannot keep an edge, plus it tends to be very brittle and easy to shatter. again this is true of ANY steel.

As for armors in japan, again your lack of knowledge shows itself. see the above url. This goes, as well, to your comments about the " "many" political, environmental and geographic items" you mention (without anything to back up your comment as well).

So you keep quoting from your books, I'll keep speaking from experience, and until you walk in my shoes, do not presume to berate me.


~Gryph

P.S.
As for one being better than the other........ well, as stated in the above essay, it's really a matter of who the better fighter is and some amount of luck as well.

[Falconer]

The fact is, Samurai are, at worst, the equal of any european knight and they, at best, outclassed any western fighter/soldier.


And this quote is what then... I called you on this one mainly. My gripes are mainly two... one people who spout tons of chaff and don't have nary a clue. And people who constantly suggest an oriental 'class' because it's exotic.. nifty.. and more commonly overpowered. That quote directly contradicts your last paragraph. Your last post at least seems to have backed off this.

I commend you for an excellent link (though the author I feel is more familiar with european styles and his lack of close familiarity with the Japanese specifics shows I think). I've loved that particular group ever since they were known as The HACA (historical armed combat association). Much better than the SCA clowns ever were :P :). Sidenote: I largely see the argument as a mine is bigger than yours type deal. I'm more interested in the how and why things developed differently and what real effect it had on future evolutions.

My comment on the field about armor is still accurate in context. If you're ONLY talking about samurai... then yes. They tended to be well armored. (a lacquered banded armor style similar to the old roman segmentata). However, by and large... the BATTLEFIELD wasn't heavily armored. The Ashigaru who numerically dominated were typically in leather or partial leathers. While in europe it wasn't uncommon to see entire companies of men-at-arms in chain with brigandine. As well as large companies of well-armed mercenaries. Even the archers were normally in full leather at least.

You also show ZERO, absolutely ZERO understanding of metalworking. I'll warn you right now. You're arguing with an engineer with training in metalurgy and a familiarity with historical smelting and forging. Iron was not smelted in Japan until the Meiji era... prior to this iron was gotten from iron sands using charcoal. In Europe, swedish iron ore commanded a higher price than other ores because of it's quality (and it's beneficial impurities). Also smelting techniques were commonly employed (making steel comparatively far more common).

I did some searching... so here's a good link with some very interesting reading. http://www.techhistory.co.nz/IronSands/Titanium.htm

Now when you do this... lets give you an idea of rough yields... 12 tons of iron sand... ~16tons of charcoal... produces roughly 3tons of bloom (a mixture of iron, some steel nuggets, and slag and your other impurities). Now most of this 'iron' will be of the 'wrought iron' variety (look it up, it's very pure... very low carbon, and very soft). However, even that needs purified... the way this was done was to work the metal. Literally pound it flat, fold it over, and keep pounding. (hence where the term 'wrought' which is another way of saying worked comes from). This is how the metal is purified... it's folded repeatedly. (Similar techniques were used in colonial America... and I know that in those the yield of steel to iron was low though don't recall the actual percentages).

Now onto katana's... you're right. They did use differing grades of steel and folded them together. However, what is done there is that the steel is layered and someting called 'forge wielding' is done (the folding process). One interesting thing I read was the hypothesis was that this came out of the above technique for getting high quality iron; something I find very likely as those techniques would have been well understood. This has little to do with the hardening process though. That gets entirely into the clay hardening process the master crafters used to 'temper' the metal (and that was largely responsible for producing the trademark curved blade; martensite expands the steel). Sometimes incorrectly you'll hear something about pattern wielding being used.

Don't get me completely wrong. I'm like Stinger in this aspect. If I see something like this. I'm just prone to call BS. It's not personal.. I just don't like to see misinformation thrown about. You sound like someone who'd be great to just chat with over beers or whatnot. If I made any errors above please point them out... as I haven't had much truck in metullurgy in a long while.

[Inuzuka]

I think a good idea for a new profession for the monk class would be hand to hand combat, a combo based skill set, like you start out with a punch, then you can go to a kick ability, followed by a final jump kick that did alot of damage, kinda like the monk class in iRo.

Since its based on combos most of your slots will be used for the h2h moves, leaving little room for others making it a more specilized class

Idea's for status moves - Kickup sand (Blind) Bruise- causes bleeding cant think of any more at the time

I would love to see something like this, most rpg's dont use h2h moves anymore and monks are meant to heal as well as fight (in dnd anyway)

The h2h weapons would be different knuckles and would be 2 handed