Fame

[SmileyQ]

I think they should add fame to random and team areans. You are still fighting other people. And if you played alot people would know you just as much as if you were in HoH. But it would be like after 10 wins in a row 1 fame, 20 wins 2 fame, ect... Or I was thinking if you got 10 flawless you can get fame or something. But thats really hard, my record is 9/10 like 5 times when I play Mo. So what do you think ?

[Ray Of Light]

I think Fame would be a great reward for random arena battles ( team arena may be a bit too simple ).

Personally, I would like Rank for :
Ascending
Completing the final mission
Completing the final Titan Quest
= 3, just enough for an emote.

[Gemini]

Its not 3 fame for an emote, its rank 3, which is 180 fame.

I wouldnt mind there being other measures of how well you do in team arenas or random arenas, or ways to prove your ascended or whatever, but it should not be fame.
Fame measures HoH skill and expiernce(lets not get into "this build dosnt need skill," please), and not anything else. If fame were to be changed to what you suggest, you couldnt know if the rank someone has was attainted through HoH, or TA, or whatever else. It would blur the lines and make trying to find groups of a certain rank pointless. I know I dont want to be in a R3+ group only to find that one of the members has never done HoH.

[SmileyQ]

I agree with you a lil. Rank does measure skill, but not just in HoH. Obviously it depends on the group you get. Ex. in a exp group a Monk wont have much work to do but in random arena a Monk has alot of work to do. Rank measures how good you are not your group, thats what guilds are for.

[Grim Daddy]

I'm going to have to agree with Gemini to a certain degree. Rank does give you the advantage of understanding the maps, but so does the observer mode. If the ranks changed with victories and losses, like with GvG, I might actually consider it important that these two aspects be combined. As it stands now, all rank can tell you for sure is that player with a high rank spent a lot of time in the HoH (or had someone else get to their rank for them, via eBay), which implies skill rather than proves it.

[harbinger]

I agree with Grim. Rank as it is now does serve only one purpose : filter out players who don't play often in HoH.

So they should make the individual rank the same way they implemented the guild rank.

One defeat, -17
One victory +30

But then I think lots of peoples are going to rant, because they are just not good enough to obtain victory in HOH each time they go. So rank will tend to become scarce.

Most of my guildies are rank 3 (I have no rank because PVP is not my kind of poison), but if this was to be implemented, then they would be rank -10 all the time I think.

[Gemini]

Okay, so maybe "skil" wasnt the correct word, but it gauges HoH expiernce/skill/wins/whatever, and nothing else, and it should stay that way. The point was that combining other things into fame dosnt show what you did for any certain area, so if your looking for excelent pve'er, you wont know if they got the fame through pve, HoH, TA, or whatever else might be added to fame. And same if your looking for a guy thats good in TA, or HoH, ect... I'm all for a similar fame/rank thing for other things, that I dont have a problem with, but combining it with fame would be a huge mistake.

And Grim Daddy, watching people play on a certain map and actually playing it are two hugely diffrent things. You may know how to get to any certain part of the map, but you dont nessecarily know how to play it.

[SmileyQ]

Well if they made a way to show off faction earned. That will atleast show people that you have been around. I barly play in HoH cause it takes to long to get in a group and everyone is looking for rank3. It will prob be forever till I get rank 3. Faction is just about the same as Rank/ Fame, You just get more of it. If you could show that off then I would be happy.

[Grim Daddy]

if this was to be implemented, then they would be rank -10 all the time I think.

What I had in mind was more like the Death Penalty, where your health can only go down by 60%. In other words, I'd say that there should be a floor at 0 for rank and fame. Otherwise, I'd be just cruel and unusual.

And Grim Daddy, watching people play on a certain map and actually playing it are two hugely diffrent things. You may know how to get to any certain part of the map, but you dont nessecarily know how to play it.

There are different types of learning. Of course, the two types we are discussing are observation and kinesthetic (in more tangible terms learning by doing). Statistically, most people learn the fasted through actually doing something rather than any other type of learning. I, on the other hand, am a rare case where I can learn through just about any method, which makes me the exception and not the rule. However, you should keep in mind that it's only the major that learns best through action and not every single person. In other words, what may be two different words for you can be one and the same for someone else.

Well if they made a way to show off faction earned. That will atleast show people that you have been around. I barly play in HoH cause it takes to long to get in a group and everyone is looking for rank3. It will prob be forever till I get rank 3. Faction is just about the same as Rank/ Fame, You just get more of it. If you could show that off then I would be happy.

I'm surprised that no one (no one to my knowledge anyway) has thought of this earlier, since there are bonuses to Unique Kills, Flawless Victories, & 5 Consecutive Victories (look it up in the Wiki). But, in my opinion, the only way that I could see this really working is if ArenaNet got rid of the low level arenas that tweakers use to make themselves feel good about themselves, or nerfed the experience for these tweakers (http://forums.knights-templar.com/viewtopic.php?t=3409).

[SmileyQ]

Well if they made a way to show off faction earned. That will atleast show people that you have been around. I barly play in HoH cause it takes to long to get in a group and everyone is looking for rank3. It will prob be forever till I get rank 3. Faction is just about the same as Rank/ Fame, You just get more of it. If you could show that off then I would be happy.

I'm surprised that no one (no one to my knowledge anyway) has thought of this earlier, since there are bonuses to Unique Kills, Flawless Victories, & 5 Consecutive Victories (look it up in the Wiki). But, in my opinion, the only way that I could see this really working is if ArenaNet got rid of the low level arenas that tweakers use to make themselves feel good about themselves, or nerfed the experience for these tweakers (http://forums.knights-templar.com/viewtopic.php?t=3409).

What they could do instead of getting rid of low lvl arenas is make it so you get less faction, less exp. or just get rid of the faction and stuff all together. Make it more pratice for when you get to higher lvl arenas. I use the arena to practice before I go to HoH to try and play.

[5th_Horseman666]

low lvl arenas "were" a great thing as they gave a good intro to some intense pvp for later on. they served as testing grounds and sampling areas for new players...

unfortunately this has become quite the opposite... new players, who are without any deragotory implications noobs, are forced out of these arenas and are denied the opporunity to discover and test themselves in pvp. How can a noob, and we all were noobs to start with, become an experienced player and then even a pro when his very first and probably most important chance is denied?

as a result the PvP portion of the game has suffered quite a bit IMO, not in that its gotten worse but that it could have become a hell of a lot better

Furthermore, this may be one of the reasons we see all these "n00bs" running around pissin everyone off in PvE. It could well be that they where handed the short end of the shit-stick in arenas by these so-called "pwnerers" and now they are just angry at everyone in the game who sounds like they know what they are talking about simply because that puts them in the same category of "pros". In other words there is a great loss of potential fo PvE as well as PvP and as such this is a MAJOR problem


ANet has only two realistic choices:

1) Eliminate the possibility of tweaking in these arenas
OR
2) Eliminate the low lvl arenas (pre LA) entirely


just some thoughts on the topic

[Grim Daddy]

or just get rid of the faction and stuff all together.

You do mean in just the low level areas, right?

Furthermore, this may be one of the reasons we see all these "n00bs" running around pissin everyone off in PvE. It could well be that they where handed the short end of the shit-stick in arenas by these so-called "pwnerers" and now they are just angry at everyone in the game who sounds like they know what they are talking about simply because that puts them in the same category of "pros". In other words there is a great loss of potential fo PvE as well as PvP and as such this is a MAJOR problem

You're preaching to the quire here. But I don't mind though, since it makes me feel better that there are people out there who understand what I mean (http://forums.knights-templar.com/viewtopic.php?t=3095) by this (look at my second post in the link and you'll see what I mean). So in two words: thank you.

[SmileyQ]

I was saying getting rid of faction and exp recevied in low lvl arenas. that way ppl that want a tweeked char can do it, they just wont get anything from it.

[Grim Daddy]

Okay, I just wanted to make sure that we're on the same page.

[harbinger]

Low level arena shouldn't exist period. They are not that fun when you fight tweakers#ptou#, and you can't compete in once you have what it need to kick ass.

Anyway, most of the players say they want to reach lvl20 before going to pvp.

Stripping down early arena from any rewards is a good idea IMO.
Like in any martial art (look at karate and judo), competition kills the spirit.
You become no more no less than a soldier of fortune.

If you drop WestPoint freshmen in a platoon of mercs, I will bet on the mercs. That exactly what they do when new players encounter tweakers #ptou#.

:roll: I personnally don't pvp much, first because I am not good at it (don't have 7 hours/day free to train), second because I don't like the spirit here (mostly teen spirit #POWNZER DIVISION YAAAY! ! !# -_-' omg) and last but not least,

it doesn't bring anything to my PVE characters (except painful and sometime humiliating death).

I mean, what's the point of letting PVE characters do PVP if they don't even get something from it?

Fame? I can live without. /rank isn't a priority emote for me.
Faction point? Can't even unlock mods for my PVE avatar.

:? I would prefer to be in a PVE guild, but now most guild is dreaming of the ladder thing. It kills the fun for me.

Imagine, you get in a guild, hoping to get new friends, and having fun. NO
You must be a killing machine, no place for newbies. Listen to the chief orders. If we lose OMFG we are going down in the ladder (we are under thousand so who cares?!).

Sometimes, I think I would be better without a guild. It's not a place to have friends no more. It's a god forsaken corporate mimicry.

Interaction between player is limited to : "what's your score?"

Sorry for the rant, but I see so much people who care only of the PVP part of GW... It's like CS... all you do is frag frag frag until your brain is numb. What's the fun in it?

[Stretch]

I understand your feelings harbinger. My guild was started on the PVE train and more or less has stuck to it most of the time. We get together every so often to do some pvp or gvg, but for me so far i have not found alot of fun in it. Alot has to do with the skill of our group together because we have all learned our craft in pve. I myself go nuts doing a gvg and i am "attempting" to lead our group to avoid a humiliating defeat to 8 13yo's who spend the matches iway and orders-ing us to death. I tend to only enjoy any pvp when i win, no matter how many times i win in a row, the second i lose, i am grumpy. Its my nature I DONT LIKE LOSING. I am a bad loser and i admit to that.

[harbinger]

:D Me I simply enjoy PVE and playing with friends.

:( and yes, being beaten with my friends is not as much retributing than beating the crap out of monsters with my friends...(and at least, I get cool new toys sometimes)

But what I don't like much, is when competition get to their brain.
No more place for role playing and fun. It's all kill kill kill and 133+ skill skill skill (plus they always want to do it iway although they suck big hairy ball at it).

What I like in PVE :
Collaboration in effort. Practice of the art of combat. A chance for everyone. That's something that doesn't exist in PVP.
Competition has killed the spirit of a lot of martial practice. And it will do the same to GuildWars.

Point that proves me right :
-LVL 6-15 running to droknar to have mega armor for low level arenas.
-People buying leveled account on e-Bay.
-People exchanging virtual items for real gold.
This look like doping for me. And doping exist if there is a hefty reward, sponsor pressuring and competition.

Now, nobody helps nobody because you have to get to LVL 20 to do interesting PVP.

When you ask people that you help :
It's your first character?

Answer :
-Yes, I want to reach lvl 20 to PVP with my guildies.
-No, just shut the **** up, I need to get 20 ASAP. (resulting in a lvl 20 monk logging out (yeah that's me... I would never leave except for that))

PVE now seems just to be an introduction to PVP, a necesssary evil to have a cool and customized PVP avatar.

I remind you this one detail :
In GW vs. other ORPG : we like the idea of a game with a storyline.
"Huge volume of cooperative and competitive activities (gamespy)"
I've seen a lot of competitive activities lately. Yah. Cooperative? Must be joking. Who reviewed that?

"Not so in Guild Wars. While the environment for roleplaying between characters is somewhat limited the storyline is the most in-depth and immersive I’ve encountered. (MMORPG.com)"
I agree with that. But what's the point when you can't live that with your friends because they are busy in GVG in a masochistic behaviour of trying to compete with people who play 8 hour straight a day, when we do that amount in a week?

"It can be difficult to find a good group of willing players for cooperative missions (gamespy)"
Yeah, all too busy fragging their face in Tomb or HoH. Sorry, come back later.

Boy am I in a rotten ranting mood today...
I guess I will try to forget GW a week or two. Perhaps I am just bored to the teeth right now.

I really hope Faction add some new PVE features and bring back some RPG fun in it.

If GW end up as a fantasy CS, I will seriously ponder before I buy GW III.

:wink: And again, sorry for ranting. 'be back in a week. Hoping I will be in better mood by then.

[Mattinator]

"Huge volume of cooperative and competitive activities (gamespy)"
I've seen a lot of competitive activities lately. Yah. Cooperative? Must be joking. Who reviewed that?

And GvG isn't co-operative how?

co·op·er·a·tive
adj.
Done in cooperation with others: a cooperative effort

[5th_Horseman666]

"Huge volume of cooperative and competitive activities (gamespy)"
I've seen a lot of competitive activities lately. Yah. Cooperative? Must be joking. Who reviewed that?

And GvG isn't co-operative how?

co·op·er·a·tive
adj.
Done in cooperation with others: a cooperative effort

lol... bringing out the big guns eh?

however, though i sympathize with harbinger, i have to disagree on a few points.

PvP is not whats wrong with GW, its actually quite great and i am very anxious to PvP with my guild... the problem comes from idiots trying to vent their misserable lives onto fun-seeking and honest players who are in this for the joy of the game

However, I have to agree that it is getting harder and harder to find people to play PvE with who are in it for fun and not to rush their character to lvl 20 and "pwn some noobs"... the "run" market is very much to blame for that, but i have been both the custumer and supplier in thatmarket so i cant complain

IMO, the problem would not have arrisen had PvE and PvP been kept separate, ie the characters for each mode are entirely independent, and no pVp in the PvE portion of the game... if you want to PvP, create a character that is dedicated to PvP and have your fun. The "unlocking" could still remain, its just that yourt PvE characters are strictly PvE and thats it

[Grim Daddy]

I think that both Mattinator & harbinger are trying to make the wrong distinction here, by sticking to the ideas of cooperative play. True, both are forms cooperative play. With that in mind, I think the thing harbinger is getting at is that there's much more a need for flexibility in PvE, since there are things that can be assumed about playing against another player that can't be assumed about playing against the environment (ex.: being able to always cause bleeding or poisoning against another player but not always against every kind of creature).

I know that there's the Saboteur's Armor (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Saboteur%27s_Armor) armor coming out for the Assassin & that there's Tainted Flesh (http://www.knights-templar.com/necromancer_skills.htm). However, I think that there should also be skills coming out that ward against conditions, like the equivalant of Obsidian Flesh (http://www.knights-templar.com/elementalist_skills.htm) or Spell Breaker (http://www.knights-templar.com/monk_skills.htm) for conditions. I'm not thinking of anything uber powerful here, just something to give as a direct counter balance that works before the fact. I know I said before that there shouldn't be a direct counter balance like this. But after I've seen how many people follow through with the same formula over and over in PvP only like a bunch of sheep, it comes as no surprise that I find to be this continuous pattern to be dull and something that needs to be changed.

Side Note for harbinger:

Whenever I get as pissed off as you seem right now in the game, I usually give myself some "me time." This is time where I become completely self serving on the server, & usually this "me time" includes me farming either solo or with guild mates.

[Gemini]

Uhhh, the topic of this thread isnt wether pvp screwed up pve or anything like that, its should fame be added for things other then HoH.

[harbinger]

There was a time were I would have agreed (I even proposed this once),
http://forums.knights-templar.com/viewtopic.php?t=3221

But now, I understand that fame could become a real deterrent if it is put to PVE the same way it is in PVP.

Finally, fame doesn't mean much for the moment. But if people begin to select player because they have a deer head to show, then unfortunately, there will be no more PUG without the "Rank?" question, knowing that you can be a ranked jackass too.

So fame can be added, but this should be a wise choice, not just to have something to show off (as I said, lots of ranked guildies, but still sucks hairy balls)

[Grim Daddy]

But now, I understand that fame could become a real deterrent if it is put to PVE the same way it is in PVP.

I hear that. This has lead me to a sneaking suspicion that the Luxon camp is going to be filled with players asking for rank in areas where it's irrelevant, which is another strike against them for me considering that there are allegedly more competitive game modes (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-campaign-2/680914p1.html) other than just killing each other.

[harbinger]

Once Factions releases, guilds will be able to join together in "alliances." These Alliances will share a chat channel and be able to visit each other's guild halls. More importantly, Alliances will have access to a real-time map of the struggle between Luxon and Kurzick. By participating in "alliance missions" and "faction battles," players can take control of cities and towns and actually move the two nations' control zones.
Hey, that's a nice feature.

As a group, the Luxons are a walking advertisement for the Darwinian social order -- only the strong survive.
Sounds like klingons...

Some of the new battlefields players will be fighting on include the rooftops of a densely packed city,
Hehehe... we will soon be crowded with Naruto wanabies (a new species of noobies)

"We also want players to compete in more ways than just killing each other."
Yes, that's rich. I was bored of being killed anyway :roll:

Then he provided an example of an alliance mission in which teams can't fight each other, but must instead compete to hold resource points for a fixed time and cut off each other's supply lines.
Warrior/Monk : "w0@+?! Sissy battlegrounds ?!"
Reminds me of Warhammer 40K Dawn of War skirmish. They are introducing war for ressources and attrition strike...
I hereby declare that I am ready to do my best to starve the Luxons :P
But I will stay clear of the Kurz... KruKZ... of the K.
Woonder if we can choose to be neutral (no faction)

All in all, I think it might proove interesting enough...

###################################
And to get back to topics, yes, I think hardcore PVPist will feel at home with the Luxons.

Biggest problem I see so far, is :
New player who begin in Faction will have no rank.
They will have a hard time finding a group of "hardboiled R3"(ironical tone) GW veteran to accept them for a party.

[Grim Daddy]

To be completely fair, I also have a sneaking suspicion that the Kurzick camp is going to be filled with newbies (as in new players) & n00bs (as in those that THINK they know what they are doing). This leads to the unfortunate dilemma of which side do I pick, if I can't opt for raiding/cutting off supplies on my own accord.