Hero problems

[loyadarkspear]

I was playing today and i noticed a few things with Nightfalls heroes. Some times your heroes will glitch and wont fight when you die. The Assassin hero never moves and just stands there. Also the point of heroes were to make the game playable without a lot fo real players, well one thing that would definatly help would be to update the AI of the Monk heroes/ henchies... to better learn energy management, what res spells are effective at certain times ect. Trust me on monks, I know a lot about each individual situation for them and how they work. I mean with Nightfall, I have seen a total of about 4 monks so far and its almost impossible to set up a PUG without a real monk because the heroes dont understand the battle situations as well as the other profession heroes. So some groups will end up frustrated or end up waiting quite a long time to get a monk, making the monk hero even more valuable... but its also a pain when you HAVE to bring thme for certain quests which makes them difficult. IMO i would like to see some of these hero glitched fixed in the near future. :D :D :D

[STINGER]

Heros do have some AI issues but they arent bad and I would easily take them over the Hench monks and over most the public ones as at least I know they are skilled properly.

They use OoB very well while EDrain or Drain Enchant, Inspired and things that they need to target a foe to use they dont use well at all. They Smite pretty well which is cool. Choosing which heal to use is a problem also. One can see them trying to heal thru degen and not removing. Put Martyr on someone and they will use it but they will stand in the middle of everyone so its like an accelerated traffic light......green.....red......green....red. I have ran Martyr on my Necro as an MM and it works pretty well considering.

The Necro running as an MM if you give him Heal Area and Blood of Master he wont use BoM and trys to Heal Area all the time letting thier minions die. I took the Heal away and he does alot better now. Necro rocks at Putrids and Wells, but he is iffy with Death Nova. I have seen him let several minions die with no attempt to cast it and then I get to 50% and he casts it on me.

The Sin doesnt use her escape skills very well and when she does she just flys back in at low life like it was a mistake to get out.


Really I think most of the issues are the skills. If you take into consideration what the Henchmen use to use and you still got the job done and then keep defense and survivability in mind while you skill yours up you will do better. Its so tempting to try and may the Sin, Warrior and Dervish damage beast and they can indeed be beastly but if you dial it back a bit they can still be very strong and better defended.

One thing that is very strong is the "called target" work a Hero can do. For instance capping the Avatar of Balthazar I put a Water Blinder on the boss and that poor SOB was worthless....slowed, blinded...... interruption is pretty sick and perfect. A Ranger interrupter will make the best PvP interupt player feel inadequate its jsut a matter of identifying who need interrupted and getting them on the target or they will just follow yours.

I cant wait to get the Messemer as i plan to try out a skill that never gets used and i anticipate it to get ugly.......

They need improvement, but dont stop trying to rework thier setups to get the best out of them as they can rock. Just keep in mind that no matter how much reworking they do they will never be abel to do all jobs well......

[SyllabearTheDruid]

Consider though that it is extremely difficult to put in behavior skills for every circumstance for every skill for your Heroes to use properly and they are doin pretty good.

[Anathor]

Timing, order, and circumstance are everything. As Stinger essentially said, extremely specialized and intricate builds are very likely to be misinterpreted by the AI. Keeping a build simple and straightforward would almost certainly be most effective. AI may not realize intended order, or what skills need to be constantly recast/maintained. Although, like Syllabear said, it is impossible to program to cover every possible combination of skill in every type of specialty build, I think they should always be striving to improve the idea they started. And from Anet's past performance, I think it's pretty much guaranteed that they will.

I don't know if it is possible, but perhaps some type of "hero-learner mode" interface could be established in a pre-battle format which would allow the user to "teach" the hero how to use a build.--Something beyond the "next skill" suggestion of pressing skills for the hero in-battle.--Hero memory retention maybe learned in-battle? dk.

[loyadarkspear]

I know where you all are coming from, but that hero build learner would help a lot. I mean using Drunken Blow ro Desperate Blow without Balanced Stance or Dolyak Sig is completely stupid.

[STINGER]

I know where you all are coming from, but that hero build learner would help a lot. I mean using Drunken Blow ro Desperate Blow without Balanced Stance or Dolyak Sig is completely stupid.

Wonder how he would do with Ward of Stability........

[Grim Daddy]

Though the Heroes aren’t the brightest in the world when it comes to executing skills; they are skill better than many of the random people that I’ve picked up along the way.

First, the Bad:

I’d heard from another person that Koss wasn’t smart enough to use Severe Artery in combination with Gash.

As for me* personally, I’d tried to use Blessed Light on a simple Protection build for Tahlkora, and she treated it like one would Remove Hex or Mend Condition. This* caused her to drain her energy without the help of the opponents running energy denial. Needless to say, I had to give her a much more simplified Protection build.

Second, the Good:

Henchman and Hero commands pretty much speak for themselves.

From what I’ve seen, placing the skills in a certain order will not assure anything, as far as which skills are a priority for the hero to use. For example, Olias will tend to start a fight off with Shadow Strike, despite it being somewhere in the middle of his skill bar. And he also has a tendency to make use of the corpses before the enemy does, even if the skill is at the end of the skill bar. This has its advantages, when I need to switch something out on the fly for one of them.

Their reflexes when attacking are very good. I did set Tahlkora up for Smiting a few times, and it seemed like she took advantage of the damage bonuses for Smite and Spear of Light virtually every time.



The one thing that I can’t understand is that I can use the skills that I unlocked in PvP or PvE on my account for my heroes in PvE. But at the same time, I can’t use any of the rune or weapon bonuses that I unlocked either in PvE or PvP for the heroes in PvE. I guess ArenaNet thinks that there isn't enough grinding in PvE yet.

[Nomad 2]

The Assassin hero never moves and just stands there.

Something I found at: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Zenmai

Zenmai has a tendency to get stuck when entering the area of Bukdek Byway. She will not move from any portal, including Kaineng Center, Shadow's Passage, Vizunah Square, or The Marketplace. She will not fight if the fight is brought to her, and if she dies and is ressurected, she remains frozen. She cannot be commanded, and will not respond to hits via her hero bar.

Sounds like a bug in the game, it probably should be fixed but not at the expense of the players. Feel free to mention any other places the heroes get stuck at (and which ones too).

[ellioto_elementalist]

I would easily take them over hench monk and over the public ones at least I know they are skiled properly.

Stinger, if you would rather play with AI than real people that is pretty sad.

I would pick a human anyday, simply because they are much smarter than any AI. I admit there are a few dumb players out there but like people have said heroes arn't that great. Remeber all they are is custom henchmen, don't treat them like real players.

[Stretch]

I tend to henchway through pve alot, there are many circumstances when you cannot, but so often if you go into a pug there are so many unknowns, whereas with a hero or henchperson you have a pretty good idea what to expect and how to work with it.

[STINGER]

I would easily take them over hench monk and over the public ones at least I know they are skiled properly.

Stinger, if you would rather play with AI than real people that is pretty sad.

I would pick a human anyday, simply because they are much smarter than any AI. I admit there are a few dumb players out there but like people have said heroes arn't that great. Remeber all they are is custom henchmen, don't treat them like real players.

It is not a matter of "preference" it is more of a necessity.........I dont intend to stand around with 7 guys waiting for the MM, Elly or Monk for 20-30+ mins. If I could pop into town and organize a reasonable group in 5 mins ro so I would be happy but you cant do that. Why? Because once you let a Sin or a Messemer in your party "some" people start leaving.....if you dont have a MM or SS or Elly Nuker.....people leave, so I have to build my party to what the general public wants in order to even get a party withint 20-30 mins......so why not take 1-3+ guild mates and a bunch of Heros and Henchmen and GTFO of town in 5 mins?

You might have fun sitting there for all that time but I dont and top it all off if you dont ask everyones build then you are risking going in with a Smiter when you thought you have a healer, or a melee Elly or a Warrior that cant kill a freaking thing with no rez even though he is a W/Mo and can tank the world forever........

I am not a real picky guy, this game is simple to me in PvE.....all I need is some basic stuff and all the spots filled and if they are AI controlled guys and 1 or 2 humans that i can bullshit with on Vent or TS then I am happy......

Stinger, if you would rather play with AI than real people that is pretty sad.

Thank you for your personal evaluation of me.

[Great_Hobo]

I agree with Loya.... I really hate the Heros....

You have to spend more using your monk heroes skills then you do fighting....

They can be helpful but when they glitch they get annoying. They need a fix

[STINGER]

What builds are you guys trying to use?

[Tiny Killer]

Well, I have had no real concerns with hero function. Myself and a guildmate jave made it to end-game with nothing but the 2 of us and our heros. Granted, heros could be a bit more concerned with energy management, but we made it through all of the missions none the less.

If anyone is having problems with their monks, here are the builds I am running most of the time.

Heal: Glimmer of Light, Healing Whisper, Healing Breeze, Signet of Devotion, Signet of Rejuvination, Vigorous Spirit, Healing Seed and Resurection Chant.

Protection: Signet of Devotion, Signet of Rejuvination, Protective spirit, Aegis, Reverse Hex, Shield Guardian, Restore Condition and Rebirth.

Granted, both builds are far from being the End-All/Be-All for monk builds, but they did get myself and a guildmate through the game with no other healers being used. Give them a try. The signets really help the AI with energy management.

[Dumbfinger]

yes...using both signets to better maintain thier nrg is what most people are doing and it works fairly well.

[ellioto_elementalist]

Thank you for your personal evaluation of me.


No problem :D

Well actually I can see where are coming from, there simply arn't enough of what people need. I mean personally I don't like playing as a healer and I only have 1. People blame everything on bad healing even when healers are totally innocent.

But heroes arn't really a decent substitute in my opinion but oh well.

[SyllabearTheDruid]

Thank you for your personal evaluation of me.


No problem :D

Well actually I can see where are coming from, there simply arn't enough of what people need. I mean personally I don't like playing as a healer and I only have 1. People blame everything on bad healing even when healers are totally innocent.

But heroes arn't really a decent substitute in my opinion but oh well.

Heroes fix a variety of problems. First and foremost being that Henchmen just aren't often suited skillwise to the situation. Second it is easier to fill out a group with a good hero. And third (last for the moment) oftentimes the heroes will get you through a situation that a basic PUG cannot. (You have to remember alot of PUGs just aren't tolerable in this game: the good ol meet, greet, and go doesn't often get you through the game.)

[ellioto_elementalist]

And of course, as the origional game walkthrough puts it:

Some people feel uncomfortalbe with recruiting a load of total strangers

So yeah overall heroes are OK, just don't start pretending they're real people or we might have to wheel you off to the loony bin :D

[STINGER]

MoR Boon works well as long as you keep an eye on the guy and dont go into new battles when he is taxed.

Dont put rez on your monks or lock it or they will rez as soon as someone falls thus they wont be healing and thus more will be dieing!!!

I have personally been running a Necro MM wiht Martyr and he is damn good at it but the monks tend to forget to remove from him at times.

Becarefull wiht skills like Blessed Light, they will use it for simple condition/hex removal you are better off running a Word/Mend/Remove setup then trying to do BL.

I think being simple and not getting to freaky is the way to go and freaky to them might be simple to you. for instance.......if you give a Fire Nuker Echo or AE and Met Shower and fireball you will get echoed Fireball alot, btu if you narrow him down in choices you can get your big hitters. I have also seen them echo Wards......:( Personally Echo/Nuke is overkill, give them a big hitter and some spammables and maybe Glyph of Elemental Power or Glyph of Lessor and let them spam away and you can get the damage out of them.

Lots of the favorite builds people like take team work even at a minimum like Echo SS......not worth much unless you herd up alot of them but if you do then you are asking for trouble as the AI of your Heros isnt so garunteed.....You might get Echo Price of Failure.....

BTW, a MM build wiht Well of Suffering will cast the well ALOT......it is a bit of a pain at times when its like the last foe and he needs minions, but in battle.....Well + Putrid is making a big impact....Death Nova is like icing on the cake.....I run (2) minons skills and Feinds and it works well.

My Ellys run Wards and they are darn good at getting them up and I have even ran Glyph of Sacrafice and Rez Chant......I click them for him if I want it done but other times he is getting off big hitters really fast also.


As with all parts of this game positioning can make all the difference in the world.......if you make use of the pinning and become good at it you can make all these things work better like placing that Martyr guy away from everyone so he doesnt martyr Disease and give it right back to all of you.....pin the Healer with the Warder...etc


If you are having toubles.....simplify and adjust and use your tools provided to try and make it work better for you.

[Clamatius]

I'm with STINGER - I'd rather play with friends or just hench it up. I'd say when I've played in a pug at least 3/4 of the time the players were pretty terrible (the usual stuff like W/Es with Meteor Shower, etc.).

Even back in Prophecies, I was pretty convinced that the average PvE player was worse than the henchmen. With heroes there's really no contest, especially once you take party creation time into account.

Thanks for the hero tips. I've been running an E/Mo fire Heal Party guy with Prodigy and it actually seems to be working pretty well so far. Of course, he only casts Prodigy when he gets down to 5 energy but still... :)

Koss didn't seem able to manage Sever/Gash on release, but he seems to be doing a better job with that now (I think they patched it).

A nice trick is to have secondary mesmer on your monk for Power Drain - they're pretty good at using it. They are so bad at managing energy that the extra energy helps a lot (and you incidentally shut down a random mob spell too). I agree with Tiny Killer too - Signet of Devotion is good too because they quickly burn their energy down to 0 and don't have anything to do.

[ellioto_elementalist]

When it comes to AI there is always room for improvement.

[Stretch]

Yep, i have to admit with my heros i carry 90% of the time Sousuke with a fire damage build, Olias, going mm and a monk. This allows max damage as well as a healer that i can slap around when i need a bit of a pick me up

[ellioto_elementalist]

I'm with STINGER - I'd rather play with friends or just hench it up. I'd say when I've played in a pug at least 3/4 of the time the players were pretty terrible (the usual stuff like W/Es with Meteor Shower, etc.).


Yes but that's 1/2 the fun of guild wars! Hoping your mish-mash party works (and more than often enough, having a go at people) is great fun. When you know you and your boring heroes will always win is terrible, it takes something away from it.

I think you'll find, Everybody loves a loser.

That's a line from the song Everybody loves a loser by Morcheeba. It's quite relevant.

[STINGER]

Seldom is there much fun in failure but it all depends on what you are doing.

If you throw together 8 people of various expierence and do some GvG failure is coming and you can have fun doing some freaky stuff and just mash the enter button over and over.

On the other hand if you want to do the GvG button smash but also want to PvE the game for the story 1-x times you dont really care to see the same part of the story 2-5 times once is enuff for each character. Besides, there are no garuntees with Heros they are just as adept at using skills wrong and there is actually a good bit of work making sure they are positioned and using skills properly depending on thier builds.

I have played this game since 10-04 and I have played PUG a ton in the first two chapters and delt with all that stuff and frankly I dont care to deal with it anymore. I am tierd of seeing "need 2 X 3 Y 1 Z no C or D allowed" and sitting for 20-30 mins looking for that last monk or MM or Elly Nuker. I would much rather grab 3 Heros and 4 hench or a friend or 2 and Heros and get 1 main mission and a couple sides done while that team picks thier nose waiting for a Monk......

I like PvE......to a point......I dont like PvE when it involves sitting and waiting and then failing 20 mins later and doing the waiting again.